I adopted Flash as a saluki cross and he looked more like a cross when he was a puppy (about 6 months old), but as he grew up, he seemed to become more and more saluki like.

What do you think? A pure saluki or a cross?

Here he is when he was picked up as a stray by the rescue organisation





At around 1 year old




And this is him now at 3 years old

It is possible he is pure but it's likely there is a small amount of other blood in there, simply because there are more crosses about than pures and a lot of them are indisigusable for pure Salukis. There comes a point where these Salukicrosses are so heavily Saluki bred that any other blood in them becomes so diluted that they are essentially Salukis. Either way he is a hansome fella

What height is he? Do you know what area he was found in?

He is somewhat similar colouring wise to my Ameerahs Father.



Regards

Mark

He was picked up in Yorkshire. We're 99% sure he is an ex-travellers dog. I don't know his exact height, I'll measure him. But I think he is a touch smaller than most salukis (have never seen him next to a pure one).

It is likely probably that there is a bit of collie in him as he does the collie down and stare really well. In fact the down position (and also distance down) was one of the easiest thing to teach him.

Vera

Looks saluki-ish to me.
Lovely dog.

L.

He looks a dam sight better than when you took him in and if hes not pure hes certainly not far off good to see Flash in a good home its made my day seeing a success story like his good on you MyFlashofLightening :D

I believe he is a Saluki. here is my Timur and Adel. Timur is pale cream.

Hello from Italy,
I am not an expert to judge if your dog is a pure saluki but what I can say looking at the pictures you have posted is: he is very very beautiful, the coat color if I'm not wrong is included in the list of the accepted Saluki colors, he has for sure the eyes and ''expression'' of Saluki, you said that probably there should be Collie's blood in him...well it is true the Collies have a long muzzle and this kind of almond beautiful eyes but the overall conformation of your dog, is for sure more related to
sighthounds than....Collies. In any case he is very beautiful, I like him a lot!!!!
Please give him a big hug and kiss from me and my Farida (Italian Greyhound)
Paola

I have finally managed to measure him, though he wouldn't stand still... he is between 25 and 26"...

How about this dog, Saluki or no?

That looks very like the dogs in the photos China Chen sent us from China.

Am I seeing Aghan in there somewhere? :HMMMMM:

Looks a well put together dog whatever it is.

beautiful dog how would he be bred hazard a guess mark

Good guess, he is 75% Saluki and 25% Afghan. He is about a year old in that photo, he's filled out some and his chest has dropped since then. Interestingly, he has a brother that is coated, not Saluki fuzz but an actual silky coat; sides, second thigh, shoulders and upper front legs. He even has a pretty good topknot. It will be interesting to see if he drops the adult coat in the summer.

That's really interesting, do you have any photo's of the parents and the rest of the litter?

I've often considered breeding my bitch to an afghan and still would if I ever came across the right dog.

I've seen a few photos of AfghanXSaluki's mainly on US Saluki rescue site's and they looks a good sort for my hunting.

Regards

Mark

I got some interesting things from the first and second crosses. The Afghan/Saluki cross, two of the males got the Afghan male size. Will have to take pics of those two. Didn't get big feet, but rounder feet, which is okay with me since it's very rocky here, big rocks, little rocks, and long toes tend to get injured. Coats were variable. The three-quarter Salukis all turned out fairly lightly built, the two bitches weight about thirty pounds. Very compact feet. Interestingly, and I don't know whether this is due to diet or genetics or both, the full blood parents of all the crosses were longer than tall, and none of the crosses turned out that way. They are all pretty much square dogs. I would like to try another F1 cross with different lines and see what happens.


This male was the smallest direct cross. All my dogs were clipped very short this summer due to a bout of fleas, but if he hadn't been clipped down, his coat would be about five inches in the longest areas, on the lower shoulders/elbows, and second thigh. In the summer about three quarters of the coats sheds completely, from the top down.


Sister to the above dog, not quite as coated. She loses most of it in the summer.


Bigger bitch than the other two, with heavier bone. She didn't surprise me, because two of my pure Afghan bitches are very big, and the mother of the original crosses is not a small bitch.


This is the mother of the 3/4 Saluki pups. She gets a bit of fuzz on the shoulder and second thigh in the winter that gets about four inches long. In summer she has no more coat than a regular Saluki. She will climb an eight foot fence.


3/4 Saluki bitch. Sister to the red dog in the post above.


Coated dog from the same litter. I will have to try to get a good full body shot of him, he has about as much coat as the big bitch above, but the hair is not as thick.

Really interesting stuff!!

Especially the fact that seem to have all sqare dogs from longer than tall dogs

The 3 things that really attrack me to the Saluki/Afghan are the cold weather coat for the winter, strong thickly padded feet and more substancial frame.

The fact that the coat can adjust so much that really appeals to me as it can be cold here for the salukis whilst ferreting as they might be standing stationary for some time between rabbits bolting. A coat that would be smooth (saluki like) during the summer and become wooley on the flanks thigh and shoulder during the winter would be ideal so long as they were fairly 'clean' in the foot/pastern/hock area.

Where the coat is short/smooth how thick is the coat is thicker than your typical saluki?

The ground I hunt on can get quite rough aswell in the woods and steep banking riddle with rabbit holes and rocks and tree roots. You can really see in the photo second from the bottom that the feet are strong looking with plenty of pad.

The problem I might have if ever go this route would what to do with the rest of the litter as I would sruggle to find the right owner for these type of dogs.

Have you recieved any opposition to your breedings? I feel many would have problems with it here, I personally see them all as regional variations of one race.

It's a shame you are so far away as I would love to of seen them in the flesh.

Regards

Mark

I haven't noticed any opposition so far, but I haven't been very public about my crosses. Personally, it's my feeling that as long as the dogs are properly cared for, don't end up in rescue, and I'm not trying to pass them off as anything other than crosses, it's my business and no one else's.

The short hair is not any thicker than your average Saluki. If I could get an Afghan that shed out most of it's coat in the summer, I'd be happy. The dogs with the heavier coats are better protected against the local cactus spines, they tend to get caught in the coat instead of sticking in the skin, like the shorter coated dogs. I may try breeding one of the crosses back to an Afghan to see what I get in regards to coat. Good coverage on the chest and shoulders seems to be important. The funny thing about Afghans is a lot of them have been bred to have such a heavy coat for so long, they don't really get a true saddle (it has a layer of fuzz on it unless you strip it), and they don't shed much in the summer, even without air-conditioning in a very hot environment. Not a good adaptation. Even with patterned Afghans, you do not always reproduce the coat, you can have patterned dogs and heavily coated dogs in the same litter. I have two Afghans that are very heavily patterned, slick saddles that come down their sides, with bare pasterns, and if their coats shed out in the summer they'd be ideal for the environment. I don't like to have coat all the way down the leg, it seems to catch on the brush and slow the dogs up.

The only problem I've had with their feet is the stop pad gets lacerated on the rocks. Sometimes it'll be pretty bad, with a flap dangling. The only advantage I can see to the hair all the way down the leg instead of bare pasterns is the stop pads don't get hurt on the rocks.

Here in the UK we have some show saluki breeders that seem to think that they are the only ones with the right to breed Saluki's and you would be struck out of the various saluki club if you were to crossbred. Why I really don't know, like you say as long as you are reponsible for the pups there should be nothing for anyone to say about it.

I would be happy with an afghan that would shed its coat as you say, some of the Kazakh Tazi also really appeal to me but not all of them so it make you wary of trying to bring in a pup as there is no guaranteeing the amount of coat you will get in individuals, I might end up with no more coat than my Salukis. This is where the Tagain realy interest me, they seem to have good seasonal coat, exceptional feet and bone.

It would be interesting to see how Taigans would perform in your environment. I am very keen on them as I think they would be a real rough and ready hound for the cold and rough ground. I don't think they would be as fast as my Saluki's but that might not be such a bad thing.

Of course some fresh COO afghans would be great but with current troubles in Afghanistan I don't think that is going to be an option in the near future.

I was excited to see the photos from Wahab Kamal of Afghans in Afghanistan and to hear of a book about these COO Afghan as we don't really know much of what goes on out there with regard to hunting.
I am sure that the right mix of Saluki and Afghan would give you what you are looking for it's being able to fix that type that might more difficult. Are there many others where you are interested in having this type of dog for the same reasons as you?

Fixing type becomes problematic because even in the original breeds, the coat is variable. I have seen some pretty naked Afghans and very fuzzy Salukis. I would be willing to go for a heavier coat as long as it shed out in the summer to make the dog more comfortable. The long coat on an Afghan is not difficult to maintain as long as you are not looking to preserve every hair; the only bad periods are when the puppy coat sheds out, which can be a nightmare of mats and brushing, or after a heat when most bitches will blow their coats. Otherwise, a good brushing a couple of times a week and picking out the bits of brush will do fine. I clip my hairy Afghans during the summer and they are definitely happier and more comfortable; that's why I'm so interested in the coats on my crosses.

I find the Taigans very interesting as well, I think they would do well here, as it's very brushy and not open, so agility is favored over speed. Even their coats are quite variable according to the pictures I've seen, though.

Horse people seem to be a lot hipper in regards to cross-breeding; it's very common to cross different horse breeds for specific purposes, you can even register some crosses according to the percentage of the original breeds. Unfortunately the dog show game grew out of the Victorian era, where the humans were quite into the 'genetic' superiority of the upper class, and applied that sort of thinking to their dogs as well, thus the closed stud books and emphasis on pure breeding. In livestock, it's perfectly acceptable to outcross, and after a certain number of generations of breeding 'pure', the resulting progeny are considered 'pure bred' again. No one will send you hate mail about it.

Forgot to add, there is a fairly interesting article on 'breeds' here pertaining to Afghan hounds, but it makes sense if you consider the Saluki/Afghan/Bakhmull/Taigan, etc. to be a landrace instead of individual breeds. Click on 'articles' and the one your want is Breed Box Bingo, it's a pdf. Some good pictures. I found it interesting it came from a show type online magazine.

Good article and exactly what we talked about at the Kazakhstan Conference when trying to reach a resolution on a standard for the Kazakh Tazi.

We Have an Irish DraughtXThoroughbred and he is registered with the Irish Sport Horse Register, horse such as this are often used as status symbols despite being a crossbred. Breed a saluki with anything other than a Saluki here and the Saluki Club 'mob' will banging on your door with pitch forks and flaming tourches lol!!

You would think with the mess most breeds are in these days that people might start to think a little differently regarding breeding dogs.

Looking at photos in Hutchinson on Sighthounds the Afghans are Identical to some of your crosses.

One of our members on here mentioned they had an afghan cross when I posted the above article on The Hunting Life forum. He says he was really pleased with the dogs ability in the field.

Standards, gah. I actually think the AKC standard for the Saluki is a pretty good one. There is plenty of room for different types. The AKC standard for the Afghan is awful. Ridiculous things like level bites and prohibitions against white markings were added simply due to breed politics. The FCI standard for Afghans is much better.

We have Breed Police here in the US, too. I've never understood the hatred that cross-breeding engenders in some people. It's not like those dogs go on to be fraudulently registered and dilute the pure gene pool. It doesn't affect the parent dogs in regards to future breedings. I see that Saluki/Greyhound crosses are very popular in the UK. (I've had ex-racing Greys but did not like their feet. Too prone to injury.) Do the Saluki Police have a fit about that, too?

I thought you might like to see a more recent picture of the red dog I posted. In the first one I posted he is about fifteen months old. He will be two years old in May. His growth has finally stopped enough so that I can keep some weight on him; my dogs typically run/play for three or four hours a day, it's hard to keep them in decent weight while they are growing. The bitch behind him is a pure Afghan. She's a bit of a weird-looking Afghan, conformation-wise, and that's about as much coat as she gets unless I mess with it. The red dog, incidentally, had Parvo at sixteen months old; I think he's got most of his muscle back.



Two sisters of the red dog.



Brother and sister Saluki/Afghan crosses. About both ends of the coat spectrum I got, from not very hairy to lots of hair.

Thought I would add this simply because it amuses me and I'm shallow that way. This is a photo of an Afghan hound from 1934.

He is looking really well, they all go through that boney stage don't they till fill out.

Do you have any more photo of the Afghan behind him she looks a nice type.

I do like your patterned ones especially considering the weather here just now.

Last week while ferreting a hillside I watched two local afghans chasing Rabbits and was impressed by the speed they had, I saw one of them about a year ago while talking to the lady and I was impressed by its build. I'll have to try to take some photos next time.

That is my Ugly Afghan. Her neck is set on too low for my aesthetic taste and she is very 'old-fashioned' looking. Undeniably functional, though, she goes over things as often as she goes around them. Lots of boing in the rear end. And her coat is perfect for the area, not too thick or heavy, but enough protection on the chest and legs to keep cactus and rock injuries to a minimum. And they are fast, nothing like a Saluki on flat ground but they are very agile, turn on a dime and they just zoom through the brush here.

Clipped down last summer.


She's got these little bitty feet but they never seem to give her any problems. I haven't run her in any truly sandy areas, though.


This was taken a couple of days ago.


She's also relatively obedient, for an Afghan :D

I like her, love her colouring!

Is that as long has her coat will get naturally or is it shorter because of a yearly clip off?

How do you find Afghans and Salukis typically compare temperament/behaviour wise?

Thanks for the photos.

She is blue brindle. I am partial to blue dogs, though my favorite is domino, which is the Afghan equivalent of grizzle. She was clipped down last summer. Her coat would grow indefinitely if I bathed and groomed her a great deal; it takes a lot of work to produce one of those long show coats. Brushing the coat when it is dry breaks the hair off, and that's what I do, it keeps the coat to a manageable length. She also sheds some of her coat out in the summer, unlike my heavy coated dogs. I will likely not clip her or my other patterned bitch down this summer, to see how much coat really comes out. My halfghans seem to have a finite length their coats will get to, like a retriever, about five inches or so depending on where it is on the body. My very heavy coated Afghans are clipped down once in the spring and again around August, since it gets very hot here and they are much more comfortable that way. Right now they've got about three or four inches of coat. I am really terrible about putting a snood on during feeding; the Afghans will always have either yucky food ears or chew the feathering off one ear, so I keep their ears trimmed. The halfghans seem to have a talent for keeping their ears out of their mouths, though, like the Salukis.



As for temperament, I don't know. Dogs are individuals, but in general with my dogs there has not been a good deal of difference. Salukis are supposed to be 'sensitive', or so I am told; only one of my current Salukis would qualify as sensitive. The rest are very similar to the Afghans in temperament, except the Salukis are perhaps less likely to try to yank your chain than the Afghans. Afghans have a rather twisted sense of humor, and it's great fun for them to really get you going, although they are very good at reading when they've reached your limit. They are very good at reading people; if, say, you are trying to get your Afghan to come to you, and on the outside you are saying "come here, sweet puppy", but inside you are thinking "get over here you horrible bitch", your Afghan will see right through you and keep away just to work you up until they are either tired or bored, or your head is about to explode. I am lucky in that I live in the middle of nowhere with no danger from cars and the like, if my Afghans don't come back I can tell them "fine, run around like a lunatic, I'm going home" and they will follow along because I mean it and they know it. The Salukis just don't push as far, although they are very alike in other ways: they steal just for the joy of it, very independent and like to amuse themselves, and aloof with strangers. But my Afghans may have simply taught my Salukis to act like Afghans :) The halfghans, BTW, are indistinguishable from pure Afghans, temperament-wise.

Shahzada, a 'desert type' Afghan, my notes say from India, maybe Pakistan? I'd have to check.





Taxidermy is kind of creepy.

Its one of the better stuffed dogs I've seen, still a bit freaky looking :huh: though.I don't think I've seen a domino other than in photos, they very striking looking.

Have you come across this site before?

Bakmulls from Nothern India/Pakistan all seem to be bare pastern/hock or even the entire leg being bare despite very full coats on some.

Some appear to have patches of hair missing suggesting shedding or stripped out. How stripable do you find your Afghans, I know you can hand strip the saddle out but how far could you go? Could you strip the feet/pasterns/hocks in when you would expect natural shedding to occure say in spring?

If you look on the gallery page there is a video of them chasing a hare starts off well with one dog doing all the work then then the whole pack appears behind the hare.

Regards

Mark

Yes, I've been to that site before. Bakmull are what the Russians call Aboriginal Afghans, as opposed to Decorative Afghans, though they claim they originated in India and then went down to Pakistan and become Afghans. Everybody wants to have the original or oldest breed. They are longer in body than Taigans or Afghans are, I think more suited to flat ground. There is a smooth dog in the gallery, but I can't read the Russian caption.

The patchy hair is probably due to shedding. When my halfghans shed, they look a bit mangy for a while. The patterned Afghans don't lose as much hair, but I imagine the Bakmull is more like the Taigan where they can lose a lot of coat in the summer, and it can come out in clumps.

I have seen Afghans with quite a lot of hair stripped out on the sides, and down the thighs and shoulders to give a certain look; a stripping knife can be used but tends to cut the coat instead of pulling it out. I suppose you could strip the legs bare but it would be time consuming and the hair would start growing back in immediately anyways. Better to start with a patterned one that already has bare pasterns :P

Thats crazy, everyone knows the Saluki is the original, which spread north along the silkroad. :P

Sevendogs as kindly translated for us, it reads "Lutchak from Afghanistan" Lutchak being the dog name.

When afghans are pups can you tell which will be highly patterned and those that will be full coated?

Not when they are very young. They look pretty uniformly fuzzy. Patterned dogs tend to start changing to their adult coats earlier than heavily coated dogs. Sometimes you can look at the puppy fuzz and it will be shorter on the saddle, pasterns, and below the hocks, starting when the dog is about three or four months old. That blue brindle bitch was completely patterned at four months old and had lost all of her puppy fuzz and replaced it with adult coat; her coat has not changed at all since then. I think she is a throw back of sorts. My other patterned bitch is a year old and has shed out all of her puppy coat as well, the adult coat is growing in now, and she has not had a heat yet. Hairy dogs tend to wait until they are older to change coats, bitches usually change after the first heat, dogs somewhat later. I have a dog that is about a year and a half old that will be somewhat patterned, he has obvious short haired patches on his pasterns that look like they've been shaved, but he is just now starting to form a saddle. None of my patterned dogs have had lots of monkey whiskers on the face as puppies, though I'm not sure how true an indicator that is. My oldest is a little bit patterned and she had a lot of monkey whiskers as a pup.

Of course if you groom your dogs constantly, the puppy coat will disappear faster. I cheat and clip my dogs if they are losing so much coat that there are problems with mats. You will see young dogs sometimes with full monkey whiskers and a clean saddle. Uh, no. That saddle has been stripped or clipped. A lot of people don't wait for the coat to develop naturally.

Ah so you basically pick your pup and take your chances. :blink:

Basically, yeah. You would likely have a greater chance of getting a patterned pup from patterned parents, but it's still a bit of a crap shoot since coat is so variable. After all, we still have patterned dogs even though people don't generally breed for them, they are hard to finish and just not as popular.