Topic hijacked, see below!


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original post

Comcast and other cable providers have been sending DMCA notices to users downloading unlicensed fansubs.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=58005

(Since this is important, and I can't post topics yet, I'll put this here.)

The State of the Industry

The following was written by a convention owner. Please forward it to ALL fans of Anime.

The Otaku has a poll up on it's website right now asking how Anime Fans think the American Anime Industry is doing; the status of business. This immediately follows a report by the Anime News Network stating that anime DVD sales are down 20% for 2007. The overwhelming response to theOtaku's poll is the industry is just fine.

I am honestly surprised at how little otaku know about what is going on in the industry.

The Anime Industry.. not just in the US, is dying. There is a Japanese company doing Lucky Charms commercials to pay their bills. FUNimation is hurting but should make it after major surgery. ADV... I just hope we are not attending ADV's wake this fall.

Anime is more popular than ever, as can be seen by Warner redoing Speed Racer. Unfortunately, we, as fans, are killing the industry... and all you hear are excuses. Anime cost a LOT more to produce than an album, and they get less per DVD than Record Labels do per CD. Illegal downloading threatened to destroy the Record Industry. Open your eyes, and see what it is doing to the Anime Industry. Prices for anime cannot drop until it becomes more financially viable to sell it. One Thousand DVDs sold is a hit with anime. Fifty Thousand downloads of the same anime cost the Industry millions, and Fans pay by getting higher prices, and fewer anime choices.

Why have I brought this up? As I said, the industry is dying, and we - the fans - are holding the knife. It is time we stepped up and fixed the problem. The Illegal downloading has got to STOP. Don't assume that because you pay, it is ok. Many sites have stolen the anime they are distributing. FUNimation has anime available on ITunes. ADV has anime available for viewing on their website. Other anime companies also have options available.

Anime Clubs: Please, stop showing illegally downloaded anime. You are are first line of defense.

Anime Cons: Most cons have already joined the fight. Illegal anime is not shown in many viewing rooms. This is a good start. Now we need to get it out of the Dealer's Rooms and Artists Alleys. If you have a hard time distinguishing what is legitimate and what is bootlegged /Stolen, contact the studios. They have people trained in exactly this. You may get an extra guest out of it. At the very least, you will get the appreciation of an industry we all love.

I realize I am just one person. I cannot do this alone. The Industry cannot survive unless all fans join together. I suggest to ALL anime fans, if Greg Ayres is going to your local con, request (and attend) his Bootleg Panel. Some cons are starting to host "State of the Industry"... this is another great one to attend. Anime fans need to stay informed.


Joshua Andrade
Board of Directors, Atsuicon

We are the only ones to blame when Anime is no more.

The Otaku
www.theotaku.com
http://theotaku.com/news/view/oop:_does_th...business?/3454/

Anime News Network
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-...percent+in-2007

I stopped in on Greg Ayres' panel at Ohayocon, and was honestly unimpressed. The problem is that no amount of generosity will change an economic market. People can either pay good money for a few DVDs with 2-8 episodes per, or they can just download the fansubs for the cost of bandwidth. Microeconomics 101, people. Asking for charity won't support an industry.

Maybe if they would stop building licensing deals into their budgets, they wouldn't be having this problem. While I do appreciate the production values, when you are absolutely forced to license in order to break even, you've screwed up along the way. Maybe it's time to hedge back animation quality a bit. There's something called a story that seems to be generally lacking in recent anime. Maybe we could revisit that novel concept.

Threatened implies it no longer does. That is incorrect. Downloading has most certainly increased. Yet the Record Industry still exists. I'm not going to condone or defy that action, but it's definitely something to think about.

This is NOT how supply and demand works in this situation. This is not a new technology, where it would be expected to charge higher prices until a definite market has been established. Anime has been around in the States for over a decade now. So if people aren't buying the anime at the current prices, guess what? It's time to reevaluate your supply and demand curves and lower the price. Anime companies may feel free to ignore the laws of supply and demand if they wish, but they do so at their own peril and at the very real chance of their inevitable demise.

But there's another factor involved. I don't think it'd be an exaggeration to state everyone here grew up on anime and/or have been watching it for years. That's great, because it means that there is, in fact, a market for anime. Though it introduces another problem. Generally speaking, that nice 13~18 age bracket (or to be realistic, ANY age bracket) just can't afford to pay $25 per DVD for a series, especially when there's a LOT of series. So what do they naturally do? They turn to downloading anime. They do it for years. Anyone that thinks this behavior is suddenly going to stop when they come into the money is a fool and needs to get out of marketing forever to save us from their stupidity.


The industry, in general, needs an overhaul. Anime realistically needs to be priced competitively with other formats. I realize it doesn't actually compete with said formats, but logically when people see all these $15 DVDs and then $25 anime, they're going to see it as price hiking regardless of any good reasons to the contrary. I also think it needs to stop overbudgeting so much. If that's at the expense of some production values, so be it. A system that relies 100% on licensing to survive is going to end up shooting itself in the foot far sooner than later. And I also think that lowering the selection of anime in the States is not necessarily a bad idea. If the moe isn't selling, then for God's sake stop trying to push the moe. It would be far better for the industry to focus on genuinely good series that will definitely push a lot of copies than to focus on an niche of a niche market based on a gimmick and end up dying for it. If that means we go from 600 DVDs to 200 DVDs in a year, then SO BE IT. With that success they can start branching out into other series that might be more of a risk.

But I am absolutely certain that an overhaul in both Japanese and American anime is necessary, and without such an overhaul, the industry is going to run itself into the ground regardless. It could potentially be argued that it's already done it in Japan.

Y'know, for all the anime that I download, I still buy series when I can. I buy series I genuinely LIKE, because it means I get to have a nice box set and nice DVDs that can be displayed in my room and that I can watch whenever I want and NOT have to be glued to my computer screen to do so.

Realistically, everyone who downloaded stuff would still buy stuff, and I think that would solved a lot of problems... and I really don't think it's people in OUR age bracket (referring to college age,) because most of the people I associate have a healthy collection of physical stuff they've bought over the years. It's the folks in the younger years of high school, who happened to come in to the fandom in age where it's RIDICULOUSLY easy to get bootlegs (much more than when even I was a freshman in high school.)

They're the gaiafags who will argue with you for hours about how it's their fucking right to download fansubs *snorts*

*shrugs* I'll do my part to support the industry and try to convince others to do the same. I think Gurren Lagann is next on my to-buy list! ^^

I have a big problem with this even being used in this argument. Speed Racer for all intents and purposes should not be considered a part of the current anime trend. It is something from a bygone time that had a fandom totally unrelated to todays anime fandom. The people who loved Speed Racer are not todays fans. Todays fans are a product of Toonami, DBZ, Sailor Moon, Gundam Wing, Pokemon, and Digimon. That is only describing older fans in the 18-25 age bracket.

I'll comment more later.

In the mean time, Smokie, while the Speed Racer arguement is indeed fucking retarded, it cannot be denied that the anime fanbase is exploding. Convention population, even at terrible cons, keeps going up, despite the total number of conventions growing at a stupid rate.

Illegal filesharing is the only valid explanation for why the market can increase while the industry is in freefall.

I'm very concerned about the Western market. I'm even more concerned about the Japanese one. If it collapses, where will I get stories and art that don't fucking suck?

Optimal solution (from my perspective) is a nice digital subscription-based system (Netflix, I'm looking at you) that makes use of the already-present fansub groups to produce quick, cheap, officially-sanctioned releases. Perhaps also using said english sub releases for additional adspace. (Google Anime?)

I would also like a pony.

This keeps bugging me, so I have to say something...

In truth, the entire entertainment industry on the western front is in pretty sad shape, the writer's strike has been exposing how bad things are getting. There has been nothing but bad luck for them for the past couple years. What it's going to take to save the industry, I don't know exactly, because my generation are never going to willingly stop what's killing this industry. And the truth is for anything, evolve or die.

At Ohayocon, my friend and I talked about this, after she went to Greg's panal. She stated that she saw no reason to pay for anything that's free, and to be expected to was stupid. I told her how badly the industry was hurting, she was surprised, but stated she still didn't feel obligated to change anything.

Optimistically, the start of the online market will grow and expand in a way that networks finally start to fight on a larger scale against illegal file sharing as a results of competiton. Realistic, I don't know.

But if the anime industry collaspes, it may be a sign that the rest will follow in due time...what'll be left is reality shows like American Idol, sports and video games.

And books.

I think I'll get onto ordering Nadescio now...

Right here at home. Wait for Justice League New Frontier it will blow your mind. American animation has made significant improvements in reaching more mature audiences over the past few years. If they can keep it up they will be able to school everybody but Gainax.

In the movie theater, yes, but otherwise...I think you must be thinking something different then me, because I feel American animation quality has been quickly declining.

Kids Next Door final four episodes really gave an example of what it should be.

The comic industry however is the complete opposite, and one I'm gaining a lot of respect for. I wish I was having an easier time reading.

Hello, american animation industry is getting better WHAT NOW? What, sir, have you been watching? Movie wise, bar Pixar, there's pretty much... well, nothing that isn't freaking fart jokes now ever since Disney has been in a slump and Don Bluth stopped making films. Television wise, bar Avatar (which is an excellent series,) there really haven't been many good cartoons since the bloody nineties! It's all ridiculously stupid humor that plays to people who still think farting makes for a good punchline.

Part of me may be biased because it's the stuff I grew up on, but even when I go BACK and watch stuff like, oh, Courage the Cowardly Dog, it just seems so much more... thought out. Not so freaking inane. Sure, stuff back then still has that cartoony, super-deformed style that is so common in american shows, but it doesn't leak stupid out of every orifice like many of the american-made cartoons do today.

I never said this was a universal across the board thing. Just a small step here and there. Nor did I say anything about animation quality. I was more referring to improvements in storytelling.

Marvel and DC have been bringing out some awesome animated works in recent years. I've seen Ultimate Avengers a dozen times and its still pretty damn cool every time I watch it. And if you haven't seen their recent Doctor Strange animated film do yourself a favor and watch it.

Justice League the New Frontier almost made me cum in my pants. What can I say its hot.

The TMNT was awesome before they pulled that Fast Forward shit. I still want to crucify somebody for fucking it up so bad.

He-Man and the Masters of the Universe was a fair show before it got canceled.

Megas XLR was a great show. It was fun to watch and a fine work of parody.

I think these are shining beacons of awesome showing what the west can do.

These might not be getting theater releases, some of the shows were plagued by bad marketing decisions and lack of financial commitment on the part of the network.(nothing new, hence why Johnny Quest and Pirates of Dark Water got axed)

Also I feel compelled to note that on rare occasions flatulence can make it good punchline but I agree it is overused.

I know you didn't say anything about animation quality, that was more a personal comment about the peculiarities of american animation. And not a bad one either *shrugs*.

Honestly? I don't pay much attention to the marvel/DC shows anymore, so I must profess ignorance. If there's good stuff, fine, but I really think the last of those shows I really watched were X-Men: Evolution and Batman Beyond. Maybe Teen Titans a little. It's been years.

He-man is a SIX YEAR OLD SERIES. That is not new at ALL! And no new content for years. Thus, irrelevent, it's not really current events in such a shifting field as animation.

Never watched Megas, I could never get in to it. Still, from watching commercials, it's definately a mite more thought out then some of the shit that nickelodeon/cartoon network currently has in their line up.

Yeah, fuck you for your justice league bullshit.

Even if Frontier was that good, it's still just one fucking show, and if I like superheros to begin with I wouldn't be into stuff like Gundam or Macross.

Your arguments are invalid, and even the best American shows don't hold a candle to DECENT anime yet. That goes for live action as well. Avatar might be a decent substitution for Naruto, but Justice League is NOT a substitute for Last Exile, or even Gunfrontier by any measure.

Even Batman the Animated Series (from the early 1990s)? That was an amazing show.

Though I can't really think of too many examples other than that ;).

I still hold that if it was another time and it had more budget, Pirates of Dark Water would have been that epic American show. As it stands, though, it hasn't aged well, and of course it was cancelled. It's kind of depressing, rewatching it, and seeing the extreme rewatching it, and seeing the extreme drop in animation quality a few episodes in.

There were some other epic shows when we were growing up, though! Gargoyles was pretty awesome, ReBoot was... simply amazing and breathtaking once you got past the episodic first season (though, Canadian.) Heck, even some of the older Disney animated series based off the movies were better than the ones shown today. I mean, come on, did anyone else watch Aladdin? One of the bad guys was a RIDICULOUSLY EVIL NECROMANCER who had a SKELETAL HAND. How awesome is that?

This is the shit we grew up on, can anyone wonder why the dumbed down, overly PC, stupidly episodic crap that America produces today just doesn't hold a candle?

That said, I think comparing Avatar to Naruto is unfair; in my honest opinion, Avatar is the superior show in that pairing, since it doesn't succumb to things like stupid filler, fight scenes that last twenty episodes, and the plot is a lot less generically shonen.

A step above Naruto, maybe, but really not at the level of the true greats of Japanese animation.

Gargoyles, X-Men Evolution, while too young to get much out of them I had a good time.

I will say my generation brought Kids Next Door to the table, though I think you all are too old to have thought much of it. It evolved into an incredibly deep show, and probably the closest I've seen to anime quality, out of my generation. While some of the show was average faire, it contained inperfect characters that made mistakes--a lot, and they'd pay for their mistakes, carrying over episodes, and suffer, grow and change because of them. Probably the sad thing though, is since it started off as an average cartoon, and a fair number of it's episodes didn't break the mold as much as the ones that did, it won't be remembered for anything special.

Not that it really matters what amazing stuff has been done, looking at Cartoon Network alone, there's little hope for american animation. They've let go of so many shows in the past year and this year, and what they've replaced it with is so bad. Chowder had innoventive animation, but has been quickly dropping in quality, also George of the Jungle, Johnny Test, they both have such cheap animation, and no depth to them, even less depth then what they're replacing. The best they had, Foster's, has a)Sold out b)Has had nothing new in months.

A year ago, I would have been able to step up and defend American animation, but there's currently nothing imaginative, no talents, nothing but the boring cardboard copies that are just the same characters in different locations and with different names, and reruns of shows that have ended.

Hey I never said it was a substitute. I said a few steps have been made in the right direction.

Mike I want you to note that when I mention New Frontier it is with a great deal of respect. This thing is not the Super Friends. Its not even Justice League Unlimited which was pretty cool for a kids show. New Frontier is the Cold War animated. Sure its just one movie but its powerful. It shows DC clearly aiming an animated work at an adult audience. It was so strange seeing mature things shown in the DC style that it freaked me out a little. When it comes out of the 26th I hope everybody does their self a big favor and goes out and rents it. Its worth it.

Yeah Mike its a damn shame our society doesn't appreciate mecha. I feel I should point out you mention decent anime and precious few Gundam shows are really decent. Fewer still are really good. To be fair Tomino got forced into making a lot of shit he didn't want to while the shit he wanted got scrapped. Alas poor F91! I'm the only one that likes you, oh what you could have been.

I must note that despite how much crappy animation the west puts out Japan has more than its fair share. Rosario to Vampire anybody? I must note that I have lost almost all the respect I had for GONZO.

Yes, Japan has crap, but they also have good animation to make up for it! Of course crap is going to be produced along with the good stuff, but unfortunately, there is very little good being produced in american to counterbalance the crap.

Yuffie: what about samurai jack...

This topic I think has gotten a bit far from the original post though...

I forgot about Jack. ;.; I loved it, as well as a lot of sentimental value. It wasn't one I got to know to well though, by the time I was old enough to apperciate it, it was yanked off the air.

But it's epic. When it comes to American animation, I hold all of Genndy Tartakovsky's works very highly. Kinda look at them in a catogory of their own. >.> Yeah, I'm a fangirl for him.

Meh.

About the content, specifically fart jokes... Fart jokes are pretty universal, in my opinion. I may not be a fan, but you can find a fart joke anywhere in any medium. You could probably make the same argument for something like kancho jokes in anime... C'mon.

And Richard Williams' Thief and the Cobbler blew my miiiiiind-- it was great, I especially love the chase scene (here, it's on YouTube) with Tack and the thief through the palace. The polo scene is good too! But Williams is Canadian. Now that I think about it... a lot of the stuff I think of to represent good contemporary American animation I'm pretty sure came from Canada...

I'm going to agree with my homeboy Arjun Appadurai when it comes to American v. Japan animation (and I did a fuckin' presentation on this shit for my Globalization class last Spring). We just feed off of each other anyway; you can thank Walt fuckin' Disney for the anime industry (and Max Fleischer). Tezuka was a total fanboy, and it's pretty obvious-- look at Astroboy and Mickey Mouse side by side (here's one of my slides from the presentation). Plus he said he went to the movie house "80 times" to see Disney films and he copied Bambi and Snow White into his own style.

And there's a huge difference in demographics. Animation is way more age-specific in the states-- it's generally for kids. So... quality's going to suck because, well, kids probably don't care so there's no point in putting in the extra effort. Unless it's a feature film... When it does become a rare case and the targetted age group is older... the quality tends to get a little better.
In Japan, it's not really as exclusive, so they have to pay more attention to detail.

Though I think it'll get better for the US, our generation is on a mission, it seems. They're fired up with inspiration from anime and they have the usual disdain towards their own domestic shit-- kids are becoming interested in pursuing animation careers. They want to make their mark and equal the quality they see elsewhere. So, more power to them. Hollaaaa~~

Oh, and in my personal opinion, anime's also at a low-point ATM... but that's just me.

Okay, I'm done with being stupidly optimistic for now.

!! I LOVE THAT FILM! - Its a shame that it got so butchered though, poor Richard Williams took 20 years of his life to produce something beautiful that got hacked into a cheap alladin rip off... For those of you who haven't seen, the animation is ungodly amazing, particularly the scenes biggs talks about above. :)

I actually have a friend who took clases from a guy who apprenticed in animation with Richard Williams, if that means anything...

It depends upon which part of anime you are looking at, I think anime has become far more polarized, with more really amazing stuff, and more really stupid/bad stuff than before. I don't think films like Tekkon, Mindgame, Paprika, etc would be produced at the frequency they are if the anime industry was completely off... (from an artistic perspective)...

Now from an economic perspective, that's a different story...

Also with new titles like Denno Coil, Gurren Lagann, Diebuster, Freedom, a new Kinos Journey, Nanoha, and Nodame Cantabile, it's hard to say the industry is in a slump.

I think between 2002 and 2004 was the low point, since then we've been getting better and better product.