First off I know I havn't really thrown any creature suggestions of my own out there, so sorry about that, I shall get thinking and do so.

Secondly I nkow not all the creatures being thought up iwll be included, but I still feel theres a definate lack here in ideas for weaker creatures.

So without further ado, my point is everyone is chucking in a host of ideas for new strong almighty creatures and hero's, but there arn't really a whole lot of ideas for new early game, massable, squishable type minions. Not that i don't appreciate the ideas out there, but they could do with some ideas of weaker creatures to balance them out, we don't just want to spam DK3 with 10 new types of dragon, dark angel and knight. After all, I feel the smaller earlyon goblin adn demon spawn type creatures added jsut as much fun and atmosphere as everything else.

Let me get the ball rolling(these ideas are just off the top of my head btw so sorry if we all realise in about 10 seconds that they all suck :P):


Halfling: hero with very weak sling based range attacks

peasent: puny humanoid with low al round stats, but a meele fighter

skink: small lizardman creature, a spitbased ranged attack, but primarily a meele fighter

familiar: small firey demon that starts off as a poor meele fighter, but gains a few fire and irritaional spells as it levels

Problem is a LOT of people here seem to think all creatures need to have at least SOME sort of usefullness....

An advantage could be as simple as faster training, extra low pay, and easy attraction and maintainance values. This could be a trait common amongst more of the weaker creatures who don't have useful jobs, such as Goblins.

Meanwhile, some other 'weaker' creatures, like Spiders, could be slower to train, but that's because the spider has more uses in and out of combat.

There is no good when there is no bad.
The beetle and golbins would be included to play that role.

Portal trash is just a part of DK. I think they should indeed be cheap and train up fast.

what about something like the fetish in DK2? Obviously they's have a different name/apearence, and i'd like to see them do less damage, but I think a tiny little demon that hurls itself down a corridor faster than you can blink at the enemy in a crazed fashion without any concern for its own safety would be awesome :D

i think we should make each creature have a "population" number.
for example, a goblin is 1 pop, and a dragon is 3 pop, that means that for every dragon you can have 3 goblins.
That makes the lower creatures more useful because you can have more of them.

We could just include an option like in the DK2 skirmish mode where the player can specify the number of each creature available, then there's an overall population limit for each player. That system worked fine to me, I don't see the point in giving points to individual creatures.

people never set individual limits, notice how the only way to win was to spam black knights...............

mind you if it was set to a default of only a few for strong creatures, maybe people would play with that as a bassis and have the option of strong creature spamming should they wish to change it for an occasional game?

because if there is a 20 pop cap, 1 player can have 20 strong creatures, and another player couldn't get any strong one.
But with the system I'm suggesting one person can have 20 strong creatures and the other can have about 40 weak creatures. So the creature distribution is more even.

Everyone simply assumes strength = all you need.


This is why I so strongly advocate different uses for creatures. A Spider more apt to freeze a nonfrozen target proves his use on the battlefield already. Is he strong? Listen bud, he's got radioactive blood... erm, I mean NO, he's not too strong, BUT it took another creature out of combat. In this way, that creature you froze is useless, yet if it comes out of the fight alive, it more than likely will need more pay on payday than your spider will.


FUNCTION doesn't need to mean brute force... 'strength' has many meanings.

anyone who attracts creatures based on cost has lost the moment they started playing, yes there are other functions than brute force, but I have yet to see one thats an equal substitute. Obviously you need a bit of research maybe youll want some traps etc, but overall 20 dragons/knights/angels are gonna wip the floor with: a few knights and dragons and warlocks backed up with spiders and dark elfs and warlocks blah blah blah. At the end of the day, combat is what will decide the game, everything else is just to turn the battles in your favour however indirectly they may do this e.g. casinos keeping your creatures happy so they are around for said battles.

In some RTS games, swarming with cheap costing creatures that are created quickly can make all the difference.

Sometimes you dont HAVE gems and are forced into a do or die few tiles gold situation.

A substituete for brute force? How about debilitation? Research? Trap building? Sure, Hammer Trolls don't fight well, but by the dark gods, the boulders they create can win battles on their own if you play them right. Who needs an army of reapers when boulders make them go squish.


Speaking of which, here's a great example of why Brute Force is overrated. Say you're iin the situation where you have 10 reapers. GREAT! Their might is unmatched... but unfortunately, so is their rage and demands. If you don't hurry for the kill, you may find your army turn against you, especially if the enemy can keep your monetary worth at bay.

Without research, you wont have the imps needed for a proper dungeon. Yes, IMPS. Those creatures who cant fight, but somehow are a MUST HAVE. Funny how more imps can mean a more likely victory... even though they cant kill anything.

where to start.................

first off this is not your bog standard RTS, and in many maps all creatures will be available from much the same point depending what order you build your rooms, and it's not like you buy creatures anyway, you pay for them over time, and payday is rarely an issue at the start of the game.

If there is little gold, you get the strongest army you can, steal all the gold you can and attack as soon as it runs out

i said there are other things than brute force that you do need, but less so and most thigns suck as traps and dorrs can be sacrificed altogether. Boulder traps are good, but a good keeper will 3/4 times avoid loosing more than an imp or two to them. just grab a couple of warlocks for research and your sorted.

as regards reapers, that a pretty extreme and unique example dont you think? if youd said 10 dark angels or 10 dragons, that argument would be completly out the window, I cant imagine bothering getting 10 reapers. plus you say they would keep your monetary worth at bay, you mean they would take the gold? if you were rushing in with 10 reapers im not sure how long theyd hold onto the gold lol.

finnaly i agree you need research, yet your argument about imps is still void as you start with that spell 8-)



Heres the thing though, I'm not saying this is how it should be, I'm just pointing out this is how it is currently, however it is true that not every creature should be just as useful as every other, what we need to do is make the better creatures harder or impossible to spam.

i agree with Robofish :imp:

the ONLY acceptable reason for balancing creatures is to make sure that strategy doesn't become monotonous. That's it. yes, some creatures are better overall than others. That's just how it works. If a black knight is better in every way than a goblin, then fine! of course he is better than a goblin, he has more armor, more muscle, and probably more endurance.

so the argument that every creature needs a purpose is not what we want. your in the underworld, and obviously some weaker spirits will try to sneak their way in.

but there obviously has to be a slight balance element. If you make the black knight very easy to obtain, the strongest creature and the fastest creature, then of course tone him down. We don't want a dk2 repeat of bk spamming. But only to the extent where players can change their strategy around a bit.